[dj790duke]

Nope, no dongle for 790 Duke and no serious PCV, rottweiler is the only one who claims that the PCV is working, but in reality is doesn't. So it was a fake as always.

Please post up facts and sources as to how you come to these conclusions.


There is no dongle available as of yet to clear the check engine light on the 790. It is possible, someone just needs to develop one. The o2 signal alternates between 0-1 volt. Nothing new in the automotive world. I do not know how to build circuit boards but here's a video I found showing an adjustable signal simulator. Signal would need to simulate stoichiometric mixture so the ECU doesn't try to change the fueling.

I disconnected the o2 sensors on my bike and read the obd tool. 4 codes pop up. The heater element code and missing signal code for each o2. The ECU defaults to .45 volts (stoichometric) when it loses signal from the o2 sensors.

 

[Tommy]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to jump in to this thread, but I have a question regarding another solution on the ECU. Does anybody has the AKRA map installed on the bike, which comes with the full Akra exhaust? As I've heard (and got confirmed by several persons), this deletes the closed loop map and doesn't take into account the lambda sensor. Which means you could work over the whole line with the PCV and have the AT300 lambda's installed in the original position of the original sensors, so you could adjust both cilinders seperatly.

Or is this topic more to cope with the original street legal map to comply by the rules? Than I would say sorry to go so off topic on this thread.

 

[dj790duke]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to jump in to this thread, but I have a question regarding another solution on the ECU. Does anybody has the AKRA map installed on the bike, which comes with the full Akra exhaust? As I've heard (and got confirmed by several persons), this deletes the closed loop map and doesn't take into account the lambda sensor. Which means you could work over the whole line with the PCV and have the AT300 lambda's installed in the original position of the original sensors, so you could adjust both cilinders seperatly.

Or is this topic more to cope with the original street legal map to comply by the rules? Than I would say sorry to go so off topic on this thread.

I too would love to know what the Akra map does. Would be very interested to know if it deletes the closed loop operation and o2 sensor input. Who have you talked to that has confirmed this? KTM? Dealer?

This thread is open to all information as long as it can be backed up. There's too much confusion and hearsay about the 790 and it's time to find out what's true.

 

[barbagris]

It is possible, someone just needs to develop one.

To the best of my knowledge there are 2 in development: Australia - where the guy has a wealth of experience: Austria - where the prototype "version for sale" started Dyno testing last week. The R&D version has been in use for about 1000kms. And then there is the Italian doodad - which depending on where you read - either works or does not.

The issue is not generating a signal, but generating a believable one (for the Bosch ECU). But this is only part of the game - designed to resolve the closed loop. The open loop area will still need something. There are many options we could discuss.

Now allow me to interject. WHY and WHEN do you want more power? Cruising? or during short term changes to throttle position? Slow opening or fast opening? - Honestly if I am sat on the motorway at 120kmh in traffic - I don't need "power" - nobody does!. I need it when I need to move the throttle. This is where enrichment algorithms leap to the fore - based on delta (change).

My comments refer only to road use.

Happy to keep playing the devil's advocate - but time to go to work. :wink:

 

[dj790duke]

The issue is not generating a signal, but generating a believable one (for the Bosch ECU). But this is only part of the game - designed to resolve the closed loop. The open loop area will still need something. There are many options we could discuss.

Now allow me to interject. WHY and WHEN do you want more power? Cruising? or during short term changes to throttle position? Slow opening or fast opening? - Honestly if I am sat on the motorway at 120kmh in traffic - I don't need "power" - nobody does!. I need it when I need to move the throttle. This is where enrichment algorithms leap to the fore - based on delta (change).

Yes, like I said, a signal needs to be generated to tell the ECU the mixture is a steady 14.7 afr (.45 volts). The 790 uses a 0-1 volt alternating signal from the O2 sensors. A steady .45v signal will still set off the check engine light as the ECU is looking for an alternating one. This is why a normal dongle doesn't work.

 

[barbagris]

Yes, like I said, a signal needs to be generated to tell the ECU the mixture is a steady 14.7 afr (.45 volts). The 790 uses a 0-1 volt alternating signal from the O2 sensors. A steady .45v signal will still set off the check engine light as the ECU is looking for an alternating one. This is why a normal dongle doesn't work.

Building a simple square wave signal generator to do that is not hard. But I am NOT yet convinced that this is the only issue. If it was - then it would already be done.

I believe (with no documentation at all to support this theory) that the Bosch ECU either expects or has been programmed to expect the square wave values to vary under certain conditions. It may even be that the Bosch basically is sending a signal and expects a certain response within a given time frame. Polling is not uncommon in other technologies.

 

[Tommy]

I too would love to know what the Akra map does. Would be very interested to know if it deletes the closed loop operation and o2 sensor input. Who have you talked to that has confirmed this? KTM? Dealer?

This thread is open to all information as long as it can be backed up. There's too much confusion and hearsay about the 790 and it's time to find out what's true.

My dealer told me that if you buy the evo line, they put the AKRA map on. Also with the Arrow decat. It removes the closed loop and doens't use the lambda's any more. They have already several running now, without any issue. It's officially Race only because you don't comply any more with EU4 rules.

 

[Stephano]

In response to the comments regarding the Coober. True the kit from Wings is a good deal.

I purchased the titanium slip on which to my eye is the best looking of all after market pipes along with an open air box cover and the ecu. Landed at my home including 3 day DHL delivered was just over $1000.00. I thought it was a fair price.

I haven’t bothered to dyno it but I can tell without hesitation that bike runs smoother accelerates more quickly and is way more fun to ride. Plus the awnings has a removable DB killer which seems to add a bit more punch and sounds wonderful. Not too loud just about right.

I do plan to have it dyno rested this coming spring.

Strve

 

[barbagris]

In response to the comments regarding the Coober. True the kit from Wings is a good deal.

I purchased the titanium slip on which to my eye is the best looking of all after market pipes along with an open air box cover and the ecu. Landed at my home including 3 day DHL delivered was just over $1000.00. I thought it was a fair price.

I haven’t bothered to dyno it but I can tell without hesitation that bike runs smoother accelerates more quickly and is way more fun to ride. Plus the awnings has a removable DB killer which seems to add a bit more punch and sounds wonderful. Not too loud just about right.

I do plan to have it dyno rested this coming spring.

Strve

Just ordered mine €1018 (Slipon,Coober etc) including DHL shipping etc.

Mine will take a bit longer (3-4 days more) as Goradz has consented to make me a pipe with MATTE finished Carbon Fibre parts. Asked for the anti-Spark db Killer and also coming un-badged. I am after a rather unassuming look. Quite the opposite from standing out.

Not sure if I will remove db Killer as power difference is negligible and when in Madrid I'd rather not attract attention from the "gentlemen with blue lights". And it's so dry here usually - the spark killer is probably a good thing.

 

[tango1]

My dealer told me that if you buy the evo line, they put the AKRA map on. Also with the Arrow decat. It removes the closed loop and doens't use the lambda's any more. They have already several running now, without any issue. It's officially Race only because you don't comply any more with EU4 rules.

On akra evo 790 closed loop stays active, they only change the target fuel value.

 

[Tommy]

On akra evo 790 closed loop stays active, they only change the target fuel value.

I've got the info from 2 different dealers that with the map, the lambda sensors aren't used anymore. It would run on a fixed map. I cannot confirm yet as my bike is still in 1 million pieces but once it is back together I'll let you know. Unless somebody beats me in time with the answer off course.

 

[tango1]

I've got the info from 2 different dealers that with the map, the lambda sensors aren't used anymore. It would run on a fixed map. I cannot confirm yet as my bike is still in 1 million pieces but once it is back together I'll let you know. Unless somebody beats me in time with the answer off course.

Take them off and you are going to see if they are active or not

 

[Tommy]

Take them off and you are going to see if they are active or not

Will do once the bike is finished. I was hoping there were others here on the forum who did it and could answer the questions.

Why do you think they would be still active? It's not anymore street legal so the bike doesn't have to monitor anything for emission. For me it's strange to not use the lambda' anymore, but this is better for the PCV to monitor both cilinders separately.

 

[tango1]

Will do once the bike is finished. I was hoping there were others here on the forum who did it and could answer the questions.

Why do you think they would be still active? It's not anymore street legal so the bike doesn't have to monitor anything for emission. For me it's strange to not use the lambda' anymore, but this is better for the PCV to monitor both cilinders separately.

Because the lambda is independent controlled on the 790. This is what i have seen in the German forum and also on facebook the folks from coober confirmed it.

 

[Tommy]

Because the lambda is independent controlled on the 790. This is what i have seen in the German forum and also on facebook the folks from coober confirmed it.

Specific for the AKRA map? Ouch I'm behind on this info then. I always tought that Coober was speaking about the stret legal original map, since their product is to adjust/help the street legal map to be better. They always stated they never support decat and would never do it, so I would never think that they invest time in analysing the AKRA map. On which german forum they were talking about it? Than I can have a look. Thanks.

 

[tango1]

Specific for the AKRA map? Ouch I'm behind on this info then. I always tought that Coober was speaking about the stret legal original map, since their product is to adjust/help the street legal map to be better. They always stated they never support decat and would never do it, so I would never think that they invest time in analysing the AKRA map. On which german forum they were talking about it? Than I can have a look. Thanks.

What i have seen, akra does only fuel adjustment to be able to support decat under load. We have few bikes in our area here, with Akra Evo and even few of those use coober ecu on top of it.

There is much more in the german forum ktmforum.eu , also about the decat on 790 Duke. So far what i have seen there is no euro tuning company providing any decat sulotion. For racing most of them use EVO or Austin Racing.

 

[barbagris]

OK - Regarding COOBER.

They are definitely modifying TIMING. Confirmed by Austrian Tuner. This pretty obvious given they interrupt the crank sensor signals and coil output signals. Rottweiler have shown this approach works too.

They have things also covered by PATENTS (so they're naturally tight lipped) but my guess is that they use the finer granularity sampling of the Coober Box to mess with SHORT TERM mix enrichment for acceleration by comparing the rate of change. The algorithms for accel are usually VERY well hidden - And being formulas rather than tables - tricky to play with without some very detailed knowledge.

Still not fitted the Coober that came last week - simply too damp and cold in eh garage.

 

[tango1]

OK - Regarding COOBER.

They are definitely modifying TIMING. Confirmed by Austrian Tuner. This pretty obvious given they interrupt the crank sensor signals and coil output signals. Rottweiler have shown this approach works too.

They have things also covered by PATENTS (so they're naturally tight lipped) but my guess is that they use the finer granularity sampling of the Coober Box to mess with SHORT TERM mix enrichment for acceleration by comparing the rate of change. The algorithms for accel are usually VERY well hidden - And being formulas rather than tables - tricky to play with without some very detailed knowledge.

Still not fitted the Coober that came last week - simply too damp and cold in eh garage.

i just give them a call, to ask few questions and the tech there told me, "oh not again" so many people call them and ask about technology. Seams like somewhere online something happens again.
but he answered all of them anyway.

the summary is, i finally have realize how stone age the power commander or a dumb fuel controller is. need to rethink my current knowledge base. :nerd:

 

[barbagris]

the summary is, i finally have realize how stone age the power commander or a dumb fuel controller is. need to rethink my current knowledge base. :nerd:

The power commander can do way more than most of it's users can. And it too has hidden algorithms (esp on cell boundaries). More-so if you add ignition units. But I think most misunderstand how it (AND ALL ECU'S) work. It's always predictive, based on prior data sampling. It's not AI.

The trick is to know and be able to measure and sample and thus determine what works best. Do you want LBT or RBT? or can you settle for PGT in this particular engine.

Many (if not most) folk doing home garage tuning never got past "jetting" and and certainly never modified accelerator pumps.

Even today many Dyno guys do not manage MAP based tuning well. And almost no client would want to pay them for their time. Think days, maybe weeks - Not an hour or two. I have 10's (maybe 100's) of hours of data logged from my R3. A really good guy with experience of several (say) 790's would be able to approximate faster.

Past that - you need a Megasquirt or similar. And lots of time (and I dare say money).

Having spent so much time with a PCV on the R3 - I am prepared to "have a little faith" and try a COOBER. But I fully understand why somebody with enthusiasm would decide to stay the course and analyse and interpret their own data.

 

[tango1]

The power commander can do way more than most of it's users can. And it too has hidden algorithms (esp on cell boundaries). More-so if you add ignition units. But I think most misunderstand how it (AND ALL ECU'S) work. It's always predictive, based on prior data sampling. It's not AI.

The trick is to know and be able to measure and sample and thus determine what works best. Do you want LBT or RBT? or can you settle for PGT in this particular engine.

Many (if not most) folk doing home garage tuning never got past "jetting" and and certainly never modified accelerator pumps.

Even today many Dyno guys do not manage MAP based tuning well. And almost no client would want to pay them for their time. Think days, maybe weeks - Not an hour or two. I have 10's (maybe 100's) of hours of data logged from my R3. A really good guy with experience of several (say) 790's would be able to approximate faster.

Past that - you need a Megasquirt or similar. And lots of time (and I dare say money).

Having spent so much time with a PCV on the R3 - I am prepared to "have a little faith" and try a COOBER. But I fully understand why somebody with enthusiasm would decide to stay the course and analyse and interpret their own data.

But power commander is a one flat map, that covers all gear based, heat based, mode based and what ever based mapping.
so you have one flat map that covers all the different mappings from a stock ecu. this is not even close to a modern ecu. maybe 30 years ago it was usable