[dj790duke]

But power commander is a one flat map, that covers all gear based, heat based, mode based and what ever based mapping.
so you have one flat map that covers all the different mappings from a stock ecu. this is not even close to a modern ecu. maybe 30 years ago it was usable

PCV supports gear-based maps and you can also add an Autotune module (even dual channel) that employs wideband o2 sensors that will actively adjust the fueling on the fly to the AFR set in the unit. AFRs can be loaded for each and every cell on the map for extremely specific tuning. You want to build an economy map? You can. Want a performance map? Sure. Want to plug in your laptop and see what all that money you spent is actually doing? No problem. Add a new exhaust or air filter? You can tune for that.
Your "modern ecu" uses narrowband sensors to comply with emissions in closed loop only. You can datalog with the POD300 and convert all that data into useful graphs with their PowerCore software. One can also find info about everything on the PCV. There's a reason Power Commanders are used all over the world with great success.

Coober (the self-proclaimed non-tuning company) sells you an ECU that plugs into your bike that improves performance. Very vague on details, make claims that go against common established knowledge on engines and get huffy when asked to explain how they came to those claims. I'm not asking for a full breakdown and keys to their Patented product, but they don't make me feel comfortable the way they conduct themselves. They've been using fear-based marketing to coax people into thinking they are the only solution. I'm sure their "engineering product" does a good job of "not tuning" the bike, but I need a little more confidence in a company than they provide. How do we know their ECU doesn't use one flat map? How do we know adding a decat will detonate an engine? Just take their word and a few scary blown engine pics of unknown origin? Eh, I've said it before, I'm fully open to Coober explaining themselves better but I can't find anything solid to go off of. I guess I'm just the customer that they don't like. One that asks questions. Crazy concept I suppose.

 

[Pgm]

PCV supports gear-based maps and you can also add an Autotune module (even dual channel) that employs wideband o2 sensors that will actively adjust the fueling on the fly to the AFR set in the unit. AFRs can be loaded for each and every cell on the map for extremely specific tuning. You want to build an economy map? You can. Want a performance map? Sure. Want to plug in your laptop and see what all that money you spent is actually doing? No problem. Add a new exhaust or air filter? You can tune for that.
Your "modern ecu" uses narrowband sensors to comply with emissions in closed loop only. You can datalog with the POD300 and convert all that data into useful graphs with their PowerCore software. One can also find info about everything on the PCV. There's a reason Power Commanders are used all over the world with great success.

Coober (the self-proclaimed non-tuning company) sells you an ECU that plugs into your bike that improves performance. Very vague on details, make claims that go against common established knowledge on engines and get huffy when asked to explain how they came to those claims. I'm not asking for a full breakdown and keys to their Patented product, but they don't make me feel comfortable the way they conduct themselves. They've been using fear-based marketing to coax people into thinking they are the only solution. I'm sure their "engineering product" does a good job of "not tuning" the bike, but I need a little more confidence in a company than they provide. How do we know their ECU doesn't use one flat map? How do we know adding a decat will detonate an engine? Just take their word and a few scary blown engine pics of unknown origin? Eh, I've said it before, I'm fully open to Coober explaining themselves better but I can't find anything solid to go off of. I guess I'm just the customer that they don't like. One that asks questions. Crazy concept I suppose.

This is exactly what steers me away from Coober, very well said. 👍

 

[barbagris]

Hmm we all see the world in Black and White. Let me say that I am a fan of the PCV. And together with mates in the US and Ireland I have formed a very accurate understanding of how it works. There is comfort in understanding. But I am also a massive techno-phile with an obsessive interest in technical stuff.

The issue is not so much COOBER or PCV/AT/IGN et al. They are very different solutions and for (imo) different demands (wishes).

But more that the Bosch ECU does some very weird stuff that is only now starting to come into view (my view anyway). And they are keeping a tight lid on it. If you really want to crack the Bosch - then look at some of the info from Peru and Bolivia where altitude changes are forcing car owners to go in and play. For me - Life is too short.

Keihin were far less tight lipped. Which is why a mass of Keihin tools (including Tune-ECU) became available.

The squarewave Lambda signal thing is one. I have no data - but am a long way from knowing if the ECU uses PWM or RMS (or both). The dongle development guys may know. But if I knew and had a business based on the knowledge - I'd not be saying either. It seems to be pulse width rather than pulse height related. But I'm still reading. PWM means a more complex bypass is required.

Another of them is deliberate leaning out. I am looking for more data from an OCD tuning mate, but it would seem that the Bosch periodically (it is not determined how often or whether it is a load based algorithm) deliberately raises the combustion chamber temperature - almost certainly to burn off residues in the head. I have noted that whilst "cruising" that the engine temp spikes for a while and seems ambient temperature independent. Had not really thought anything of it until now. Trying to correct this may be counter productive.

I am also very unclear how the Bosch is using the lambdas - from the 890 announcement there has been a change. The 890 would appear to have 100% discrete lambda control on each pot - This would suggest this is NOT the case on the 790 which sort of supports my suspicion that the 790 runs a master/slave lambda adjustment. This too will affect any lambda dongles. It's no big deal if you know. But I don't.

Anyway there we are.

 

[barbagris]

But power commander is a one flat map, that covers all gear based, heat based, mode based and what ever based mapping.
so you have one flat map that covers all the different mappings from a stock ecu. this is not even close to a modern ecu. maybe 30 years ago it was usable

Sort of. Depends how static the OEM map is. IME it gives a far from static result on a 2009 Keihin ECU Triumph. And is a valid tool on newer (and different) ECU's. Knowledge is an experience thing.

In basic mode it is percentage change compared to the OEM determined value, for given rpm and either manifold pressure or TPS. Has a 250rpm cell value (500rpm is standard)

Each gear mapped differently if you so wish (I do esp if the OEM mad also does). Though many OEM ecus do not, still.
The pressure/tps axis are fully configurable. This allows you to effectively modify cell boundaries and this can make things really interesting - especially if tuning for smoothness.

Add ignition modules (unless it is the built in version) and you can vary that - again as a comparison to original.

With a AT addon and the POD300 to log data you are going to a different approach and setting a target AFR value to which the PCV will adjust - but even so (IME) you will need to manually correct a field or two.

Of course NONE OF THIS is any use at all if you do not have a BRAKED DYNO to establish first what any of these changes yield in terms of real torque and thus power. But the same is true for a COOBER or Dobeck or imfastoo tuning inc.

But it will allow an engine to be 100% paired to it's rider.

imo - The COOBER is a device better suited to a road rider. It's designed more to reduce some of the limitations imposed on Bosch/KTM by Euro4 (Euro5?) and for multiple markets where fuel quality can be poor.

 

[barbagris]

Sorry - had to post without finishing. And could not edit.

I see the COOBER as the "Don't get taken to court, for millions, like Volkswagen" solution for KTM. In Europe this does, and will more so in the future, matter.

It requires no user input - which for many owners is a boon as they do not have the tools or skillset anyway.

With a COOBER fitted the engine SHOULD get through the "fixed" emissions tests with no issues.
I can vouch this is NOT the case if you set a PCV-AT up correctly (unless you REALLY think ahead and do weird stuff in map per gear).

I really do not see them as comparable to a PCV - period. Their target audience is different.

First read, then analyse and finally (hopefully) understand : that's my approach.
Sometimes though - it just matters that a solution has a proven effect. And for many that alone is enough.

I am reaching that age where I just accept I like dark spiced rum - I don't need to know why or blend my own, or try and appreciate Whisky.
OK I like G&T's too. And beer, and cider, and wine ....................................

Anybody would think this was about religion, or politics.

 

[tango1]

PCV supports gear-based maps

No it does not, PCV is not able to ID any gear. You need extra device to be able to make it. You end up with $1k of hardware to have a basic function. LOL. I own a PCV on my yamaha

PCVand you can also add an Autotune module (even dual channel) that employs wideband o2 sensors that will actively adjust the fueling on the fly to the AFR set in the unit.

Useless on a 790 and then you are at $1k USD for a device that is just correcting fuel! No sense at all.

AFRs can be loaded for each and every cell on the map for extremely specific tuning.

Sounds like a marketing language. No it can't. No dynamic functionality at all.

Your "modern ecu" uses narrowband sensors to comply with emissions in closed loop only. You can datalog with the POD300 and convert all that data into useful graphs with their PowerCore software. One can also find info about everything on the PCV. There's a reason Power Commanders are used all over the world with great success.

seriously? is this out of a power commander catalog?
power commander is not even close to a 40 years old ecu. Even the low cost open source ecu provide more functions the the 5 times more expensive PCV.

Coober (the self-proclaimed non-tuning company) sells you an ECU that plugs into your bike that improves performance. Very vague on details, make claims that go against common established knowledge on engines and get huffy when asked to explain how they came to those claims.

This is something you have to ask them, but what i see on fb and also when i talked to them at KTM booth on EICMA, it looks like there is a serious background, at least the connection with Bosch and KTM.

I'm not asking for a full breakdown and keys to their Patented product, but they don't make me feel comfortable the way they conduct themselves. They've been using fear-based marketing to coax people into thinking they are the only solution. I'm sure their "engineering product" does a good job of "not tuning" the bike, but I need a little more confidence in a company than they provide.

I am following them for 2 years now, i never got a feeling they are the only one on the market. In my yamaha i have a PCV, on my both ktm i have coober, on the 1000RR i have a reflash. But form the marketing point if you have a feeling they are the only one, so i would sex they hit it very well

How do we know their ECU doesn't use one flat map? How do we know adding a decat will detonate an engine? Just take their word and a few scary blown engine pics of unknown origin? Eh, I've said it before, I'm fully open to Coober explaining themselves better but I can't find anything solid to go off of. I guess I'm just the customer that they don't like. One that asks questions. Crazy concept I suppose.

At the euro ktm forum it was confirmed that coober people are heavy involved in the 790 or 890 development. So i guess they know what they do.
I hope there are way more people who are interested in "how it works" like you and my self.

 

[tango1]

Sorry - had to post without finishing. And could not edit.

I see the COOBER as the "Don't get taken to court, for millions, like Volkswagen" solution for KTM. In Europe this does, and will more so in the future, matter.

It requires no user input - which for many owners is a boon as they do not have the tools or skillset anyway.

With a COOBER fitted the engine SHOULD get through the "fixed" emissions tests with no issues.
I can vouch this is NOT the case if you set a PCV-AT up correctly (unless you REALLY think ahead and do weird stuff in map per gear).

I really do not see them as comparable to a PCV - period. Their target audience is different.

First read, then analyse and finally (hopefully) understand : that's my approach.
Sometimes though - it just matters that a solution has a proven effect. And for many that alone is enough.

I am reaching that age where I just accept I like dark spiced rum - I don't need to know why or blend my own, or try and appreciate Whisky.
OK I like G&T's too. And beer, and cider, and wine ....................................

Anybody would think this was about religion, or politics.

When we visit EICMA few days ago, we spoke with coober people at KTM booth.
One thing seams to be very clear, they fully understand the ktm engine world and based on this, their have a plan where and how to set up the ecu.

i also did not know that their ecu exists for more then 20 years, but on pressure from KTM they went public with it 6 years ago.

To my surprise they are the one who provide the long term reliability info to KTM.
So it took me a while to understand why most of those strange tuning companies are so against them. basically they have to provide a info what happens if someone (like me) is modifying the bike.
My feeling was they do not care at all, about PCV or any other controller on the market. They fully understand what it does and how.

And then if you read the 790 fb group , warranty decline on 790 is now close to 100% :crying:

 

[barbagris]

No it does not, PCV is not able to ID any gear. You need extra device to be able to make it. You end up with $1k of hardware to have a basic function. LOL. I own a PCV on my yamaha

Useless on a 790 and then you are at $1k USD for a device that is just correcting fuel! No sense at all.

Sounds like a marketing language. No it can't. No dynamic functionality at all.

seriously? is this out of a power commander catalog? power commander is not even close to a 40 years old ecu. Even the low cost open source ecu provide more functions the the 5 times more expensive PCV.

This is something you have to ask them, but what i see on fb and also when i talked to them at KTM booth on EICMA, it looks like there is a serious background, at least the connection with Bosch and KTM.

I am following them for 2 years now, i never got a feeling they are the only one on the market. In my yamaha i have a PCV, on my both ktm i have coober, on the 1000RR i have a reflash. But form the marketing point if you have a feeling they are the only one, so i would sex they hit it very well

At the euro ktm forum it was confirmed that coober people are heavy involved in the 790 or 890 development. So i guess they know what they do.
I hope there are way more people who are interested in "how it works" like you and my self.

Tango - I can personally assure you a PCV can detect gears.

It compares engine rpms to output shaft pulses and if you calibrate correctly it knows what gear you're ins. DYNOJET supply these values pre-calibrated in some maps. I use this on my R3. It's in the installation instructions and the "how to use" manual for the PCV.

I can also assure you that it will dynamically tune with the autotune module added. And you can dynamically alter target values (as you ride) if you have the POD-300.

You can also add external sensors and adjust for positive(and negative) boost. You have to calibrate it - but it's not hard to do.

I too, however, believe that the KTM<->COOBER<->BOSCH relationship is very close. My reason for going COOBER rather than PCV is based on this personal inference.

If I ever finish fitting this COOBER, then I'll have a feel for what it really does. There is bugger all room to route the bleedin' cables - and I have small hands. Decided to call it a day for now - I can't see the black on black with shades of black (it's an age thing). Actually I am beginning to think that some of the reported "COOBER not working" posts are probably due to excessive/weird wire tugging.

Time for beer and rum. Tomorrow I will continue.

 

[QCS]

I am reaching that age where I just accept I like dark spiced rum - I don't need to know why or blend my own, or try and appreciate Whisky.
OK I like G&T's too. And beer, and cider, and wine ....................................

Anybody would think this was about religion, or politics.

"Seek not things concealed from you, nor search those hidden from you. Reflect on that which is permitted to you; you have no business with secret matters."

 

[QCS]

Tango - I can personally assure you a PCV can detect gears.

...and this is how you are able to create gear sensitive maps, boys and girls.

And, BTW, @barbagris, you promised me that Dave's thingy. Where is it?

 

[barbagris]

And, BTW, @barbagris, you promised me that Dave's thingy. Where is it?

You'll have to remind me - Old age and rum plays havoc with my .......................................... Hmmmmm? - yes! memory, that's the word.

 

[dj790duke]

No it does not, PCV is not able to ID any gear. You need extra device to be able to make it. You end up with $1k of hardware to have a basic function. LOL. I own a PCV on my yamaha

Wrong. ONE wire hookup to the speed sensor and you calibrate it through the software.

Useless on a 790 and then you are at $1k USD for a device that is just correcting fuel! No sense at all.

Useless how? Does the Coober not correct fuel and ignition as well? Autotune will do it dynamically (while you ride) per cylinder and you can apply trims to the base map. PCV plus Autotune (even dual channel) comes in under $750 MSRP. Single channel, closer to $600.

Sounds like a marketing language. No it can't. No dynamic functionality at all.

Not marketing language, just facts.

seriously? is this out of a power commander catalog?
power commander is not even close to a 40 years old ecu. Even the low cost open source ecu provide more functions the the 5 times more expensive PCV.

Do you understand that a PCV is a piggy-back controller? It's not a stand alone ECU that controls every function of a modern bike. Coobers unit does not replace the Bosch unit on the 790 either, right?

This is something you have to ask them, but what i see on fb and also when i talked to them at KTM booth on EICMA, it looks like there is a serious background, at least the connection with Bosch and KTM.

I'd love to ask them. Heck, people have been asking them. You receive vague answers. Serious background and connection with KTM and Bosch? Sounds like marketing language...

I am following them for 2 years now, i never got a feeling they are the only one on the market. In my yamaha i have a PCV, on my both ktm i have coober, on the 1000RR i have a reflash. But form the marketing point if you have a feeling they are the only one, so i would sex they hit it very well

Their marketing has worked. A lot of people are afraid to modify their bikes due to the scary and cryptic info they have put out.

At the euro ktm forum it was confirmed that coober people are heavy involved in the 790 or 890 development. So i guess they know what they do.
I hope there are way more people who are interested in "how it works" like you and my self.

More marketing language? People are interested in how things work. It just seems like Coober doesn't cater to those with questions about their product.

I'm sure the Coober box does it's job just fine, I'm not saying it doesn't. They simply go about it in a different way than a PCV. The difference being we can understand how the PCV works. The information is easily accessible. Same can't be said about the Coober. If you have more information about the Coober unit and can add more insight, then please start a thread explaining it. I started this thread to help bring more information to the forums.

 

[dj790duke]

When we visit EICMA few days ago, we spoke with coober people at KTM booth.
One thing seams to be very clear, they fully understand the ktm engine world and based on this, their have a plan where and how to set up the ecu.

i also did not know that their ecu exists for more then 20 years, but on pressure from KTM they went public with it 6 years ago.

To my surprise they are the one who provide the long term reliability info to KTM.
So it took me a while to understand why most of those strange tuning companies are so against them. basically they have to provide a info what happens if someone (like me) is modifying the bike.
My feeling was they do not care at all, about PCV or any other controller on the market. They fully understand what it does and how.

And then if you read the 790 fb group , warranty decline on 790 is now close to 100% :crying:

How convenient to have warranty engines available to take scary pics of to market their product as superior. Hmm. 790 engines have been failing completely stock.

Is the KTM warranty void if the engine fails while controlled by the Coober box?

 

[dj790duke]

Tango - I can personally assure you a PCV can detect gears.

It compares engine rpms to output shaft pulses and if you calibrate correctly it knows what gear you're ins. DYNOJET supply these values pre-calibrated in some maps. I use this on my R3. It's in the installation instructions and the "how to use" manual for the PCV.

I can also assure you that it will dynamically tune with the autotune module added. And you can dynamically alter target values (as you ride) if you have the POD-300.

You can also add external sensors and adjust for positive(and negative) boost. You have to calibrate it - but it's not hard to do.

I too, however, believe that the KTM<->COOBER<->BOSCH relationship is very close. My reason for going COOBER rather than PCV is based on this personal inference.

If I ever finish fitting this COOBER, then I'll have a feel for what it really does. There is bugger all room to route the bleedin' cables - and I have small hands. Decided to call it a day for now - I can't see the black on black with shades of black (it's an age thing). Actually I am beginning to think that some of the reported "COOBER not working" posts are probably due to excessive/weird wire tugging.

Time for beer and rum. Tomorrow I will continue.

Interested to hear you experience with the Coober. Their install instructions don't show much. Does the unit plug in-line with the injectors and coils or does it replace them, leaving the stock plugs disconnected? Trying to get a sense of how it differs from the PCV install.

 

[barbagris]

Interested to hear you experience with the Coober. Their install instructions don't show much. Does the unit plug in-line with the injectors and coils or does it replace them, leaving the stock plugs disconnected? Trying to get a sense of how it differs from the PCV install.

It installs in-line. TPS - BOTH INJECTORS - BOTH COILPACK feeds and the Crank position sensor.

Been installing very carefully over the last two mornings. Getting the wires to route needs far more removing than the instructions suggest. tbh I very nearly took the tank off.

And regrettably the KTM refuses to start. Well not exactly - it fires a couple of times and stops.
I just hope that when I remove it the bike still works.
I have limited free time at the moment. If it works after removal - I may even simply request reimbursement.

I was not entirely surprised as the COOBER package was opened up in transit by DHL.
We've opened a complaint. But really quite annoyed.

 

[QCS]

It installs in-line. TPS - BOTH INJECTORS - BOTH COILPACK feeds and the Crank position sensor.

Been installing very carefully over the last two mornings. Getting the wires to route needs far more removing than the instructions suggest. tbh I very nearly took the tank off.

Somehow, It is always end up more involved than planned.

And regrettably the KTM refuses to start. Well not exactly - it fires a couple of times and stops.

Frustrating

I just hope that when I remove it the bike still works.
I have limited free time at the moment. If it works after removal - I may even simply request reimbursement.

Seems a little strange. Defective unit?

I was not entirely surprised as the COOBER package was opened up in transit by DHL.
We've opened a complaint. But really quite annoyed.

Hard to believe that the unit was damaged like this during shipping. It is designed to live its life on a twin motorcycle, after all.

Let us know how it goes, please.

 

[barbagris]

Let us know how it goes, please.

It came via WINGS, who I contacted today.

They have already replied and have forwarded my contact details to COOBER. I see this as a plus tbh.

Unplugged connectors and put back original - Fires straight up. Mrs B was understanding and delayed lunch to accommodate.

I will ask COOBER for a wiring schematic for their loom and continuity test it (unless they insist on it going straight back). My guess is it's a wire/contact thing more than the CPU.

 

[QCS]

Keep us posted. Interesting. Might indicate poor QA.

Hurrah to Mrs. B :kiss:

 

[dj790duke]

It installs in-line. TPS - BOTH INJECTORS - BOTH COILPACK feeds and the Crank position sensor.

Been installing very carefully over the last two mornings. Getting the wires to route needs far more removing than the instructions suggest. tbh I very nearly took the tank off.

And regrettably the KTM refuses to start. Well not exactly - it fires a couple of times and stops.
I just hope that when I remove it the bike still works.
I have limited free time at the moment. If it works after removal - I may even simply request reimbursement.

I was not entirely surprised as the COOBER package was opened up in transit by DHL.
We've opened a complaint. But really quite annoyed.

Check the TPS connection. Mine did the same thing when I forgot to plug in the connector.

Much easier taking the tank off to get to everything but if you do, be very careful on the fuel line connection at the tank. That 90 degree feels very fragile.

 

[Newbusa]

Check the TPS connection. Mine did the same thing when I forgot to plug in the connector.

Much easier taking the tank off to get to everything but if you do, be very careful on the fuel line connection at the tank. That 90 degree feels very fragile.

Yes, I agree. I took the tank off when installing my PCV on the bike. Way simpler especially with how tight the packaging is on the 790.