Why must it be on Facebook? - Dammit.

 

Most of their videos are on YouTube I believe

 

I really need to get a "6 pin to J1962" adapter cable.

Also that series of graphs sort of confirms my private suspicion that the COOBER alters ignition timings.

 

but their videos are made for US customers? because the people from coober have shown on their facebook page pretty much the limit of the 790 Duke engine.
they also wrote that almost every engine warranty claim on 790 is rejected by KTM. Also our local dealer confirm this.

 

I don't have any experience with Coober but from what I've seen, they put out a bunch of hazy info on the 790. Claims that no performance gains are to be had with a decat and that you will detonate your engine. They show scary pictures of a blown motor and graphs but don't explain much of their reasoning. Lots of info they show contradicts the finding from Rottweiler. Up to the customer to decide for themselves.

Every engine warranty claim is rejected? Modded or not? My dealer and my warranty states that the engine is fully covered. Of course, if a modded engine fails, KTM can blame the failure on the customer to deny a claim.

 

I am going to have to do some logging - AFR at "RPM vs TPS". God knows how - but I'll get there.

Dammit and I promised myself I would sit on the sidelines. But I swallowed that Red Pill ages ago.
@dj790duke - Do I remember rightly that you have a PCV on yours? - If so with or without ign?.

Can I also ask - have you ever attempted to connect via TuneECU or similar?

 

I am going to have to do some logging - AFR at "RPM vs TPS". God knows how - but I'll get there.

Dammit and I promised myself I would sit on the sidelines. But I swallowed that Red Pill ages ago.

@dj790duke - Do I remember rightly that you have a PCV on yours? - If so with or without ign?.

Can I also ask - have you ever attempted to connect via TuneECU or similar?

No, I don't have a PCV but have been following the progress made with it on the 790 platform. Have used a PCV, Autotune, and have the POD300 so I'm familiar with it. I've played with the Rapid Bike Easy module and Boosterplug so far to help with fueling on my 790.

I am considering the PCV and adding the Autotune wideband o2 in the exhaust to log AFRs, TPS, and all that on the POD300.

I have an OBD adapter and TuneECU but have not dove into that on this bike yet. The OBD adapter cord and a Bluetooth OBD2 allows you to use apps such as the Torque app on a phone.

 

790 Dyno Files: Identifying Closed Loop And Developing Mapping Strategies To Either Work With It Or Around It. - rottweilerperformance

 

this is a classic case of marketing and zero knowledge how it really works.

And then some guys here in the forum ends up buying their stuff for 790 duke and drive around with check light engine and zero power gain.
If the reputation is gone, then everything they do simply become marketing.

 

Very informative thread.

 

OK - Here are some observations.

I know EXACTLY how a PCV works. It's been around a long time - there is masses of experience world wide - there is a breadth of info (some of which is absolute bollix), but I have a brain and understand. Sadly I have not had an IGN module with my PCV use. I have also been inside ECU maps directly so have a good feel what is and is not possible. This thanks mainly to TuneECU which initially was entirely free and gave the geeks amongst us hours of endless entertainment. I simply do not have the time to sit and decode HEX files.

A PCV could give one a (IMO) advantage in that you can map differently in every gear. Some seem not to value this - but I do - I ride differently in each gear. Even so a PCV does not have unlimited CPU/RAM and it is dead easy to overwhelm it.

The Bosch ECU on the 790 is far from undocumented - but getting into it seems so far to be restricted to one or two expensive bits of kit. Or by opening up the BOX and doing some weird stuff. This is a bit of a dilemma (for me). OK it's not really - I will not be opening it up.

I understand entirely how the Lambda "box" things operate - in theory. But I also have enough experience of complex computerised logic flows to know that what seems simple under analysis - IS NOT. What I am missing (currently) is whether the lambda's follow a master/slave pairing algorithm or twin "master". This makes a substantial difference to the hard and software - this influences cost.

The COOBER currently has me perplexed (but work demands do not allow me the logic analysis time I need)

A lot is seemingly implied, but how much of that is my inference?. I have run into the "Trust me, I'm a doctor" school of presentation often enough (**** I've been guilty of generating it) to know that sometimes it is indeed to cover up simplicity - but other times to cover up something quite clever that you want to keep the lid on. Here we should accept that the COOBER box is just a CPU. How it is programmed is obviously flexible as the same BOX is used by Austin Racing and the end results from COOBER and AR are not identical (from what I have read). Also - tbh - I am not sure that the "tuning box" is really a big part of the COOBER core business.

imo the COOBER bought from COOBER is way overpriced - This based on the fact it can be purchased a good bit cheaper as part of a "kit". This is annoying (to me).

Long Wet weekend forecast. Time to ponder ;-)

 

The coober and atom I assume just run a generic map?
There’s a guy in the uk just starting to offer ecu tuning with the woolwich system.
I was put off ecu flashing when the one and only time I tried that option it fried the ecu on my fireblade.

 

Reflashed several bikes without a problem but bricking an ECU is certainly a concern. Currently running an FTECU/ActiveTune system on my MT07 and it's amazing. Reflashes allow more parameters to be changed such as limiter removals, cooling fan on/off limits, engine light deletes, mode adjustments, etc. Also require very little if any wiring to be added to the bike.

I Googled and found Junction 33 Developments on Facebook who claim to have flashed the 790 ECU. Is this the UK guy you a referring to? For those who can't access Facebook, I saved their graphs and are shown below. Here's a copy of their post as well:

"KTM 790 Duke 2018 Model ECU Remap

Decat with Stock Can

The owner of this bike contacted me a few weeks ago to enquire as to whether I could remap his KTM 790 Duke as he was considering selling it, as the bikes performance at low revs was really jerky, making it difficult to control at low speed especially roundabouts and town driving.
I contacted my tuning partners (as this seemed to warrant investigation and development as this is quite a popular model).
Some weeks later here we have a nicely mapped well behaved motorcycle due to remapping the ECU with many adjustments carried out....in collaboration with my highly skilled tuning partners we now have the capabilities to change many parameters, contained within the ECU unit to produce the bike KTM should have produced.

See below the before and after Dyno charts as a result of remapping the ECU.

These bikes run quite lean so there is a lot of room for improvement.

My customer will be collecting soon so I dare say that feedback will be forthcoming!

Showing dyno rollon tests for 15% 20%, 30%, 40% and 100% Throttle opening...carried out in Street Mode. All modes have been subjected to the same enhancements."

 

@barbagris, still waiting for Dave's O2 solution, although gains and smoothness from a well mapped PCV, even with the ecu light on, are pretty tempting.

 

A properly bespoke BRAKED DYNO remapped OEM ECU is the absolute BEST way to go. Period. That would usually avoid a check light. That or throw the thing away and start from scratch with a really good race ECU :surprise:

For those of us bound by regular emissions tests, homologation checks and such stuff, it is however a bit of of an issue. Anything I use has to be reversible and not too obvious.

PCV's have an advantage that they can easily be reflashed to a ZERO map. i.e. DO NOTHING. And the Rottweiler PCV-IGN tune being discussed here makes NO fueling alterations so needs no fuel dongle thingie so no light. For me however there is a recognition issue - the test organisations know what a PCV looks like (I hid it well on the R3 though :angel: ).

A question is how well will a PCV-IGN or COOBER/ATOM work with the Lambda doodads. Whether it be Italian, Ozzie or Austrian.

I don't doubt a COOBER works - I just want to know how, before I decide whether there are price/performance implications.

There is merit in the idea of changes to the Helmholtz effects in the filter box. Not huge, but 2-3% here - another 2-3% somewhere else and the gains start to add up.

That or just wait and buy the 890R. lain:

 

Hi Guys,

Sorry to jump in to this thread, but I have a question regarding another solution on the ECU. Does anybody has the AKRA map installed on the bike, which comes with the full Akra exhaust? As I've heard (and got confirmed by several persons), this deletes the closed loop map and doesn't take into account the lambda sensor. Which means you could work over the whole line with the PCV and have the AT300 lambda's installed in the original position of the original sensors, so you could adjust both cilinders seperatly.

Or is this topic more to cope with the original street legal map to comply by the rules? Than I would say sorry to go so off topic on this thread.

 

I too would love to know what the Akra map does. Would be very interested to know if it deletes the closed loop operation and o2 sensor input. Who have you talked to that has confirmed this? KTM? Dealer?

This thread is open to all information as long as it can be backed up. There's too much confusion and hearsay about the 790 and it's time to find out what's true.

 

In response to the comments regarding the Coober. True the kit from Wings is a good deal.

I purchased the titanium slip on which to my eye is the best looking of all after market pipes along with an open air box cover and the ecu. Landed at my home including 3 day DHL delivered was just over $1000.00. I thought it was a fair price.

I haven’t bothered to dyno it but I can tell without hesitation that bike runs smoother accelerates more quickly and is way more fun to ride. Plus the awnings has a removable DB killer which seems to add a bit more punch and sounds wonderful. Not too loud just about right.

I do plan to have it dyno rested this coming spring.

Strve

 

Just ordered mine €1018 (Slipon,Coober etc) including DHL shipping etc.

Mine will take a bit longer (3-4 days more) as Goradz has consented to make me a pipe with MATTE finished Carbon Fibre parts. Asked for the anti-Spark db Killer and also coming un-badged. I am after a rather unassuming look. Quite the opposite from standing out.

Not sure if I will remove db Killer as power difference is negligible and when in Madrid I'd rather not attract attention from the "gentlemen with blue lights". And it's so dry here usually - the spark killer is probably a good thing.

 

OK - Regarding COOBER.

They are definitely modifying TIMING. Confirmed by Austrian Tuner. This pretty obvious given they interrupt the crank sensor signals and coil output signals. Rottweiler have shown this approach works too.

They have things also covered by PATENTS (so they're naturally tight lipped) but my guess is that they use the finer granularity sampling of the Coober Box to mess with SHORT TERM mix enrichment for acceleration by comparing the rate of change. The algorithms for accel are usually VERY well hidden - And being formulas rather than tables - tricky to play with without some very detailed knowledge.

Still not fitted the Coober that came last week - simply too damp and cold in eh garage.

 

i just give them a call, to ask few questions and the tech there told me, "oh not again" so many people call them and ask about technology. Seams like somewhere online something happens again.
but he answered all of them anyway.

the summary is, i finally have realize how stone age the power commander or a dumb fuel controller is. need to rethink my current knowledge base. :nerd:

 

Hmm we all see the world in Black and White. Let me say that I am a fan of the PCV. And together with mates in the US and Ireland I have formed a very accurate understanding of how it works. There is comfort in understanding. But I am also a massive techno-phile with an obsessive interest in technical stuff.

The issue is not so much COOBER or PCV/AT/IGN et al. They are very different solutions and for (imo) different demands (wishes).

But more that the Bosch ECU does some very weird stuff that is only now starting to come into view (my view anyway). And they are keeping a tight lid on it. If you really want to crack the Bosch - then look at some of the info from Peru and Bolivia where altitude changes are forcing car owners to go in and play. For me - Life is too short.

Keihin were far less tight lipped. Which is why a mass of Keihin tools (including Tune-ECU) became available.

The squarewave Lambda signal thing is one. I have no data - but am a long way from knowing if the ECU uses PWM or RMS (or both). The dongle development guys may know. But if I knew and had a business based on the knowledge - I'd not be saying either. It seems to be pulse width rather than pulse height related. But I'm still reading. PWM means a more complex bypass is required.

Another of them is deliberate leaning out. I am looking for more data from an OCD tuning mate, but it would seem that the Bosch periodically (it is not determined how often or whether it is a load based algorithm) deliberately raises the combustion chamber temperature - almost certainly to burn off residues in the head. I have noted that whilst "cruising" that the engine temp spikes for a while and seems ambient temperature independent. Had not really thought anything of it until now. Trying to correct this may be counter productive.

I am also very unclear how the Bosch is using the lambdas - from the 890 announcement there has been a change. The 890 would appear to have 100% discrete lambda control on each pot - This would suggest this is NOT the case on the 790 which sort of supports my suspicion that the 790 runs a master/slave lambda adjustment. This too will affect any lambda dongles. It's no big deal if you know. But I don't.

Anyway there we are.

 

Sorry - had to post without finishing. And could not edit.

I see the COOBER as the "Don't get taken to court, for millions, like Volkswagen" solution for KTM. In Europe this does, and will more so in the future, matter.

It requires no user input - which for many owners is a boon as they do not have the tools or skillset anyway.

With a COOBER fitted the engine SHOULD get through the "fixed" emissions tests with no issues.
I can vouch this is NOT the case if you set a PCV-AT up correctly (unless you REALLY think ahead and do weird stuff in map per gear).

I really do not see them as comparable to a PCV - period. Their target audience is different.

First read, then analyse and finally (hopefully) understand : that's my approach.
Sometimes though - it just matters that a solution has a proven effect. And for many that alone is enough.

I am reaching that age where I just accept I like dark spiced rum - I don't need to know why or blend my own, or try and appreciate Whisky.
OK I like G&T's too. And beer, and cider, and wine ....................................

Anybody would think this was about religion, or politics.

 

When we visit EICMA few days ago, we spoke with coober people at KTM booth.
One thing seams to be very clear, they fully understand the ktm engine world and based on this, their have a plan where and how to set up the ecu.

i also did not know that their ecu exists for more then 20 years, but on pressure from KTM they went public with it 6 years ago.

To my surprise they are the one who provide the long term reliability info to KTM.
So it took me a while to understand why most of those strange tuning companies are so against them. basically they have to provide a info what happens if someone (like me) is modifying the bike.
My feeling was they do not care at all, about PCV or any other controller on the market. They fully understand what it does and how.

And then if you read the 790 fb group , warranty decline on 790 is now close to 100% :crying:

 

Keep us posted. Interesting. Might indicate poor QA.

Hurrah to Mrs. B :kiss:

 

Tank fairly easy to remove, fuel line, 2 vent/drain lines and couple electrical connections plus ecu.
Be sure battery disconnect before disconnecting any electrical. I propped back of tank up with roll of duct tape. All connections and lines come off easy. Fuel 90 it notva big deal, just use two hands after clip removed. My pcv was easy to install with tank off, would be impossible otherwise.

 

Had a reply from Coober via Wings. - They have asked that I retry and send them photos of everything before and after. That's fair.

Mon-Wed I can't really do much - but will have a go tomorrow. The main issue on the 790 is one or two very well thought out (by KTM) semi-hidden cable ties which need to be cut. Once you know where they are - it's a good deal easier. That reminds me - buy cable ties today.

No need to actually remove tank -I'll document. You can with care raise the front part too and then there's room.

 

when i install my coober ecu back on the bike again few weeks ago, i only removed the side panel on each side (the black covers), took me 11min to install everything and i was back on the road.

 

Want to come and do mine? - :smile:

I'm off to eh garage in a minute or so.

 

Not familiar. Nice.

I have some cheap folding pairs from amazon in the bags and Walmart specs on/in the desk(s).

 

Not familiar. Nice.

Treat yourself to a 3-pack. I have a set now in every bike Jacket and also on the car-dash.

 

So. I thought I would revisit this COOBER thingie. I was out yesterday and saw/detected some really ODD things which I want to ask them about.
This probably because it was cold when I set out and so I was a bit worried about icy bits in corners. And was possibly more attendant to the speedo etc on the way home - it was much warmer but I "per se" was not. Bit of a tummy bug - you know, one of those that give you a sort of chilly feel.

Things I'd not noticed in "HOOLIGAN" mode - but in the cooler part of the run I had to drop into street mode as it felt better. Sport on the way back but again different to before. Time to write to COOBER. I have intelligent questions to ask.

One thing is clear - whatever they do - works.

 

Stick it on a dyno that’ll tell you what it’s doing.

 

The box itself is just a box. Tunes can - and I believe do - vary between commercial offerings.

It's more what the get it to do than the results themselves that interest me. AND from what I saw yesterday - it may actually do some serious hoodwinking of the base ECU by telling it wee porky pies every so often. And that may well be how it overcomes some of the homologation restrictions.

COOBER themselves say what the sell is a ROAD use tune - and thus ( I personally infer) the WOT results on a Dyno are not per se representative of where it scores.

 

But this is true, PCV does not work at all 🤣🤣
I guess most people are scared by companies who only try to sell you crap with false claims.
Coober maybe?

 

But this is true, PCV does not work at all 🤣🤣

Actually - on it's own it does SFA. Somebody has to tell it what to do. Their criteria is all!. ime Dynojet's "maps" are shyte.

Anybody who understands "creative misguidance" - aka Marketing - is lying!. Or very effing rich.

 

2 full years after launching this model and there is still so much smoke and mirrors surrounding this bike, add-on fuel systems or ecu-flashing devices, etc... that it's making my head explode.

How is it that tuners have data, dyno runs, and seemingly endless info on AFR's and such on practically every bike out there EXCEPT this 790? How does KTM "build this engine to 99%" and leave nothing on the table due to emissions or whatnot when every other manufacturer has to choke up their bikes so much from the factory just to pass Euro 4?

I've never seen such contradictory info either - "PCV works great!!!", "Coober is the only solution!!!", "No decat/We have a decat system that works!!!"

Frustrating to say the least for buyers like myself that will happily pony up money for a known/proven product - especially if it'll improve performance, drop weight, make the bike run cooler, etc...

 

My bike has a decat/PCV/autotuner and once it gets a little warmer outside, I plan to run it on the dyno to collect another dataset for everyone.

 

Car industry have similar Bosch ECU for such a long time and I would say that it is matter of time when more and more companies will be able to fully modify stock ecu. I know there are companies in Czech Republic, Germany, Austria who already can do that and change almost everything even closed loop area.

 

Car industry have similar Bosch ECU for such a long time

True - but so far it has been necessary to open the ECU casing to send signals in via probe. What can well be very different however is what is loaded into it.

Think of it like a PC - you can run Windows or Linux. One of these has to be hacked the other does not. But they are way different.

 

I am not in the same league regarding ECU knowledge as most of the earlier posts on this topic. I have more experience with carburettors and steam engines!
Bearing that in mind, here is a reply I received from Rottweiler following my enquiry to them concerning simple O2 dongles:-

"Unfortunately there are no O2 dongles that work on the 790 platform. The Bosch ECU that comes on these bikes is not too friendly to changes. The only way we are able to achieve low-end fuelling is with the Power Commander and disconnecting the O2 sensors, which will throw a CEL on the dash"

It would be good to hear from users of Rapid Bike Easy, who claim to have improved the A/F ratio by modifying the O2 signal. I am uneasy about the RB claim and irritated by the crazy graph that they issue to substantiate their claims, showing A/F against Road Speed.
'Road Speed' for heavens sake! This is meaningless. Surely we need a graph of A/F against Engine Revs to make a quantitative judgement.

 

I am not in the same league regarding ECU knowledge as most of the earlier posts on this topic. I have more experience with carburettors and steam engines!
Bearing that in mind, here is a reply I received from Rottweiler following my enquiry to them concerning simple O2 dongles:-

"Unfortunately there are no O2 dongles that work on the 790 platform. The Bosch ECU that comes on these bikes is not too friendly to changes. The only way we are able to achieve low-end fuelling is with the Power Commander and disconnecting the O2 sensors, which will throw a CEL on the dash"

It would be good to hear from users of Rapid Bike Easy, who claim to have improved the A/F ratio by modifying the O2 signal. I am uneasy about the RB claim and irritated by the crazy graph that they issue to substantiate their claims, showing A/F against Road Speed.
'Road Speed' for heavens sake! This is meaningless. Surely we need a graph of A/F against Engine Revs to make a quantitative judgement.

Go to the Rottweiler Facebook site. They have been getting substantial increases in power on the 790 Adventure just through ignition timing and open loop mapping with the PC5. In one of their posts, they say they are going to shortly revisit the 790 Duke with a view to getting similar gains. They also put a Coober equiped 790 adventure on their dyno, including measuring AFR etc etc. results are also on their facebook site.