[648]

Very informative thread.

 

[Newbusa]

this is a classic case of marketing and zero knowledge how it really works.

And then some guys here in the forum ends up buying their stuff for 790 duke and drive around with check light engine and zero power gain.
If the reputation is gone, then everything they do simply become marketing.

.
Are we talking about Rottweilers map for the PC5 ? If so quite happy with mine other than the engine light. Had my bike on the dyno recently with Rotti mapping it was at 97 hp at the rear wheel and a bit further tuning it got to 103/61 I would say that’s a solid Gain over what most magazines had the stock bike on the dyno at,I think most mags were getting 95 hp. Most of Rottweilers mapping is to fill the hole in the middle.

 

[dj790duke]

this is a classic case of marketing and zero knowledge how it really works.

And then some guys here in the forum ends up buying their stuff for 790 duke and drive around with check light engine and zero power gain.
If the reputation is gone, then everything they do simply become marketing.

Well, for one, they are in the process of gaining knowledge of the 790 platform and coming up with solutions. Two, they are being open and communicative with the public on what they are learning. They also have extensive knowledge of other KTM models and carry a good reputation. To say they have "zero knowledge" is a quite a stretch.

Marketing is part of any business but are you saying they are misleading customers? From what I can see, they are being much more informative than Coober.

The check engine light is discussed right there on the website along with them building "open loop" maps that don't cause the light. Where are your sources for the supposed "zero power gains"? Post them up and let's discuss.

 

[dj790duke]

.
Are we talking about Rottweilers map for the PC5 ? If so quite happy with mine other than the engine light. Had my bike on the dyno recently with Rotti mapping it was at 97 hp at the rear wheel and a bit further tuning it got to 103/61 I would say that’s a solid Gain over what most magazines had the stock bike on the dyno at,I think most mags were getting 95 hp. Most of Rottweilers mapping is to fill the hole in the middle.

Very nice. Would you happen to have the dyno graph you could share?

 

[Pgm]

.
Are we talking about Rottweilers map for the PC5 ? If so quite happy with mine other than the engine light. Had my bike on the dyno recently with Rotti mapping it was at 97 hp at the rear wheel and a bit further tuning it got to 103/61 I would say that’s a solid Gain over what most magazines had the stock bike on the dyno at,I think most mags were getting 95 hp. Most of Rottweilers mapping is to fill the hole in the middle.

That’s about where mine is at with pcv custom mapped with a decat pipe akra slip on,
Same dyno with full akrapovic evo pcv custom mapped made 108hp
So yeah no gains to be had 😂
It’s not all about the gains at the top these bikes are transformed into a totally different riding experience and I don’t buy into the no cat damages the engine crap, people have been de catting and custom mapping for years and why would ktm offer the full akrapovic?
The guy who mapped the 790 with full akrapovic and ktm map said the ktm map wasn’t great but the pcv improved it greatly.

 

[barbagris]

OK - Here are some observations.

I know EXACTLY how a PCV works. It's been around a long time - there is masses of experience world wide - there is a breadth of info (some of which is absolute bollix), but I have a brain and understand. Sadly I have not had an IGN module with my PCV use. I have also been inside ECU maps directly so have a good feel what is and is not possible. This thanks mainly to TuneECU which initially was entirely free and gave the geeks amongst us hours of endless entertainment. I simply do not have the time to sit and decode HEX files.

A PCV could give one a (IMO) advantage in that you can map differently in every gear. Some seem not to value this - but I do - I ride differently in each gear. Even so a PCV does not have unlimited CPU/RAM and it is dead easy to overwhelm it.

The Bosch ECU on the 790 is far from undocumented - but getting into it seems so far to be restricted to one or two expensive bits of kit. Or by opening up the BOX and doing some weird stuff. This is a bit of a dilemma (for me). OK it's not really - I will not be opening it up.

I understand entirely how the Lambda "box" things operate - in theory. But I also have enough experience of complex computerised logic flows to know that what seems simple under analysis - IS NOT. What I am missing (currently) is whether the lambda's follow a master/slave pairing algorithm or twin "master". This makes a substantial difference to the hard and software - this influences cost.

The COOBER currently has me perplexed (but work demands do not allow me the logic analysis time I need)

A lot is seemingly implied, but how much of that is my inference?. I have run into the "Trust me, I'm a doctor" school of presentation often enough (**** I've been guilty of generating it) to know that sometimes it is indeed to cover up simplicity - but other times to cover up something quite clever that you want to keep the lid on. Here we should accept that the COOBER box is just a CPU. How it is programmed is obviously flexible as the same BOX is used by Austin Racing and the end results from COOBER and AR are not identical (from what I have read). Also - tbh - I am not sure that the "tuning box" is really a big part of the COOBER core business.

imo the COOBER bought from COOBER is way overpriced - This based on the fact it can be purchased a good bit cheaper as part of a "kit". This is annoying (to me).

Long Wet weekend forecast. Time to ponder ;-)

 

[Pgm]

The coober and atom I assume just run a generic map?
There’s a guy in the uk just starting to offer ecu tuning with the woolwich system.
I was put off ecu flashing when the one and only time I tried that option it fried the ecu on my fireblade.

 

[QCS]

@barbagris, still waiting for Dave's O2 solution, although gains and smoothness from a well mapped PCV, even with the ecu light on, are pretty tempting.

 

[dj790duke]

The coober and atom I assume just run a generic map?
There’s a guy in the uk just starting to offer ecu tuning with the woolwich system.
I was put off ecu flashing when the one and only time I tried that option it fried the ecu on my fireblade.

Reflashed several bikes without a problem but bricking an ECU is certainly a concern. Currently running an FTECU/ActiveTune system on my MT07 and it's amazing. Reflashes allow more parameters to be changed such as limiter removals, cooling fan on/off limits, engine light deletes, mode adjustments, etc. Also require very little if any wiring to be added to the bike.

I Googled and found Junction 33 Developments on Facebook who claim to have flashed the 790 ECU. Is this the UK guy you a referring to? For those who can't access Facebook, I saved their graphs and are shown below. Here's a copy of their post as well:

"KTM 790 Duke 2018 Model ECU Remap

Decat with Stock Can

The owner of this bike contacted me a few weeks ago to enquire as to whether I could remap his KTM 790 Duke as he was considering selling it, as the bikes performance at low revs was really jerky, making it difficult to control at low speed especially roundabouts and town driving.
I contacted my tuning partners (as this seemed to warrant investigation and development as this is quite a popular model).
Some weeks later here we have a nicely mapped well behaved motorcycle due to remapping the ECU with many adjustments carried out....in collaboration with my highly skilled tuning partners we now have the capabilities to change many parameters, contained within the ECU unit to produce the bike KTM should have produced.

See below the before and after Dyno charts as a result of remapping the ECU.

These bikes run quite lean so there is a lot of room for improvement.

My customer will be collecting soon so I dare say that feedback will be forthcoming!

Showing dyno rollon tests for 15% 20%, 30%, 40% and 100% Throttle opening...carried out in Street Mode. All modes have been subjected to the same enhancements."

 

[Pgm]

Reflashed several bikes without a problem but bricking an ECU is certainly a concern. Currently running an FTECU/ActiveTune system on my MT07 and it's amazing. Reflashes allow more parameters to be changed such as limiter removals, cooling fan on/off limits, engine light deletes, mode adjustments, etc. Also require very little if any wiring to be added to the bike.

I Googled and found Junction 33 Developments on Facebook who claim to have flashed the 790 ECU. Is this the UK guy you a referring to? For those who can't access Facebook, I saved their graphs and are shown below. Here's a copy of their post as well:

"KTM 790 Duke 2018 Model ECU Remap

Decat with Stock Can

The owner of this bike contacted me a few weeks ago to enquire as to whether I could remap his KTM 790 Duke as he was considering selling it, as the bikes performance at low revs was really jerky, making it difficult to control at low speed especially roundabouts and town driving.
I contacted my tuning partners (as this seemed to warrant investigation and development as this is quite a popular model).
Some weeks later here we have a nicely mapped well behaved motorcycle due to remapping the ECU with many adjustments carried out....in collaboration with my highly skilled tuning partners we now have the capabilities to change many parameters, contained within the ECU unit to produce the bike KTM should have produced.

See below the before and after Dyno charts as a result of remapping the ECU.

These bikes run quite lean so there is a lot of room for improvement.

My customer will be collecting soon so I dare say that feedback will be forthcoming!

Showing dyno rollon tests for 15% 20%, 30%, 40% and 100% Throttle opening...carried out in Street Mode. All modes have been subjected to the same enhancements."

Yep that’s the guy, I honestly think ecu flashing is the way forward but due to my experience I’m somewhat put off.

 

[barbagris]

@barbagris, still waiting for Dave's O2 solution, although gains and smoothness from a well mapped PCV, even with the ecu light on, are pretty tempting.

A properly bespoke BRAKED DYNO remapped OEM ECU is the absolute BEST way to go. Period. That would usually avoid a check light. That or throw the thing away and start from scratch with a really good race ECU :surprise:

For those of us bound by regular emissions tests, homologation checks and such stuff, it is however a bit of of an issue. Anything I use has to be reversible and not too obvious.

PCV's have an advantage that they can easily be reflashed to a ZERO map. i.e. DO NOTHING. And the Rottweiler PCV-IGN tune being discussed here makes NO fueling alterations so needs no fuel dongle thingie so no light. For me however there is a recognition issue - the test organisations know what a PCV looks like (I hid it well on the R3 though :angel: ).

A question is how well will a PCV-IGN or COOBER/ATOM work with the Lambda doodads. Whether it be Italian, Ozzie or Austrian.

I don't doubt a COOBER works - I just want to know how, before I decide whether there are price/performance implications.

There is merit in the idea of changes to the Helmholtz effects in the filter box. Not huge, but 2-3% here - another 2-3% somewhere else and the gains start to add up.

That or just wait and buy the 890R. lain:

 

[QCS]

A properly bespoke BRAKED DYNO remapped OEM ECU is the absolute BEST way to go. Period. That would usually avoid a check light. That or throw the thing away and start from scratch with a really good race ECU :surprise:

PCV's have an advantage that they can easily be reflashed to a ZERO map. i.e. DO NOTHING. And the Rottweiler PCV-IGN tune being discussed here makes NO fueling alterations so needs no fuel dongle thingie so no light. For me however there is a recognition issue - the test organisations know what a PCV looks like (I hid it well on the R3 though :angel: ).

A question is how well will a PCV-IGN or COOBER/ATOM work with the Lambda doodads. Whether it be Italian, Ozzie or Austrian.

I don't doubt a COOBER works - I just want to know how, before I decide whether there are price/performance implications.

There is merit in the idea of changes to the Helmholtz effects in the filter box. Not huge, but 2-3% here - another 2-3% somewhere else and the gains start to add up.

That or just wait and buy the 890R. lain:

No one is really offering ECU reprogramming, at this point, unless I am mistaken. Cost to do it alone (with professional help) will be prohibitive, at lease for me.

Not too concerned about inspection, in my neck of the woods. Most things work here. So well mapped PCV with dongles should work fine here.

 

[barbagris]

No one is really offering ECU reprogramming, at this point, unless I am mistaken. Cost to do it alone (with professional help) will be prohibitive, at lease for me.

Not too concerned about inspection, in my neck of the woods. Most things work here. So well mapped PCV with dongles should work fine here.

Seen one or two UK places. Would cost about USD300 at a guess at a GOOD DYNO centre with appropriate tools.

Here? - forget outside help.

 

[QCS]

Seen one or two... at a GOOD DYNO centre with appropriate tools...

My point exactly. Few and far between.

 

[barbagris]

Can I also ask - have you ever attempted to connect via TuneECU or similar?

@dj790duke I had a look today - Specifically the 790 is NOT supported. :crying:

 

[tango1]

Not too concerned about inspection, in my neck of the woods. Most things work here. So well mapped PCV with dongles should work fine here.

Nope, no dongle for 790 Duke and no serious PCV, rottweiler is the only one who claims that the PCV is working, but in reality is doesn't. So it was a fake as always.

No one is really offering ECU reprogramming, at this point, unless I am mistaken. Cost to do it alone (with professional help) will be prohibitive, at lease for me.

Not true, there is few companies in germany, norway and austria offering a reflash for 790 Duke. But every time you plug in the oem diagnostic the re-flash is gone.

 

[barbagris]

Nope, no dongle for 790 Duke and no serious PCV, rottweiler is the only one who claims that the PCV is working, but in reality is doesn't.

The IGN remap via PCV will work fine. Set the PCV fuel tables to zero - leave the stock Lambdas connected and there will be no problem. And for the US guys this will still be cheaper than a COOBER. In the EU we have good fuel so no need to super retard. Guys in some other countries MAY not have such good fuel - I don't know.

I still don't know how a COOBER works - but I have been reading everything I can find and it is pretty obvious they are playing with the IGN signals that are passed to the stock ECU. I am starting to have a gut feel for what they do to fuel too. I will write and ask them, but after I have one. :wink: - Will be going with the Wings pipe too.

 

[tango1]

The IGN remap via PCV will work fine. Set the PCV fuel tables to zero - leave the stock Lambdas connected and there will be no problem. And for the US guys this will still be cheaper than a COOBER. In the EU we have good fuel so no need to super retard. Guys in some other countries MAY not have such good fuel - I don't know.

I still don't know how a COOBER works - but I have been reading everything I can find and it is pretty obvious they are playing with the IGN signals that are passed to the stock ECU. I am starting to have a gut feel for what they do to fuel too. I will write and ask them, but after I have one. :wink: - Will be going with the Wings pipe too.

If you set the IGN tables in PCV to 0 then you have a signal delay. In reality you have less timing then stock.
I have coober ecu on my 790 Duke, also use to have Wings muffler but i replaced it with Akrapovic. To me it sounds way better and you can feel the power difference.

Let us know if you call them, there is bit more info in the german forum, but still missing the key points

 

[QCS]

Nope, no dongle for 790 Duke and no serious PCV, rottweiler is the only one who claims that the PCV is working, but in reality is doesn't. So it was a fake as always.

Not true, there is few companies in germany, norway and austria offering a reflash for 790 Duke. But every time you plug in the oem diagnostic the re-flash is gone.

As for Rottweiler, there are clear indication that the PCV works with the dongles. Not sure what you are saying here.

As for ECU flash, I don't really understand your point -- (1) it is not readily available, as for other bikes; and (2) It's problematic (as per your post).

 

[barbagris]

If you set the IGN tables in PCV to 0 then you have a signal delay. In reality you have less timing then stock.

at 9000rpm there are 150 rps. approx 6,7ms cycle. This is low for modern electronics. And ALL signal modification is predictive. Even slowish systems will operate at about 2-3ms delay - if you can count 1/300 to 1/500 of a second - I am really impressed. I do not know the cycle count of either PCV or COOBER (yet?). Patience!.

The point here is that even if there was 1° of IGN delay - you can alter (advance) it and the OEM ECU will not know. imo Rottweiler have this done.

@tango1 - please do not think that I am in attack mode. I'm not. Your reposts activate the darker side of my psyche - this makes me think (Thank You). And I really miss thinking. I'm a 60 year old atomic Physicist with advanced R&D/IT training - and I like a challenge.


And yes - I have been at the Rum.